Alexandre CIRIC talks about his best nuggets on how to start from scratch in real estate with good investment strategies. He is co-founder of the company Réseau ICM which helps with turnkey investing.
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Hello and welcome to the J'poster Complet channel, the channel which helps seasonal rental companies, professional sub-renters, and seasonal rental concierge services to become serene and ultra-profitable entrepreneurs. My guest today only had, so he told me, a 40-meter swimming diploma in his youth. He didn't have a diploma, and yet he is a persevering entrepreneur. He told me about his journey, and I was really amazed. Nothing stops him, he is someone who has done several jobs. He started creating several restaurants, then he sold them. He worked in buying and reselling cars, and then, on a whim, something that was not planned, he became a successful real estate agent, eventually creating his own real estate company. He is now a real estate investor, and his journey, you will see, is interesting. He simply bought seven apartments at the same time. He is co-creator, co-founder, and co-director of the network company ICM. We're going to talk about it. You will see, it is a company which currently has a million euros in turnover, and which has 25 people in its team. I am delighted to welcome you Alexandre.
− Hello Alexandre Ciric.
− Hello Élise. Thank you very much for this invitation. It's an honor to be with you. Indeed, you summed up my journey well. I'm leaving with not much. In any case, I come into real estate with no baggage. I didn't have a diploma. It is now done. At the age of 32, I began validating my acquired experience. Obviously, at the time of the creation of the company ICM, I had experience as a salaried real estate agent, and I completed a validation of my acquired knowledge to validate a diploma which is the BTS in real estate profession, which gave me made it possible to obtain a transaction card, of course, to operate as a business manager in real estate. So that's it, I have a diploma in addition to this swimming certificate which I mention as a joke, for the record.
− Congratulations. Afterwards, I don't think you needed this little piece of paper to practice. I think nothing replaces the experience you have accumulated over all these years. So, for those who don't know, would you like to share your journey with us?
− Of course, with great pleasure. My background in real estate, or my overall professional background?
− As you wish. It's you who see.
− I'm going to talk mainly about real estate. I started when I was 27. I got my foot in the door in real estate. I wanted to become a real estate agent, because from the outside, many people know that real estate is a profession in which there is a lot of turnover, because from the outside, it makes you want it. And that was the case for me too. I was a little dazzled by real estate agent friends, by acquaintances who were in real estate, who were successful. Obviously, the grass is always greener on the neighbor's side. And from the outside, we think that everything is rosy, and that everything is simple. I'm going to quote the cliché a little, but from the outside, the real estate agent is someone who, like me, opens a few shirt buttons, smokes a cigarette, drives in a big car, and then he earns a good living. Obviously, seeing this made me want to get into real estate too. I quickly realized that this was not quite the reality, that it was a profession that was complicated, especially when starting out. We have to prospect, we have to build a clientele, we have to convince people to trust us, even though for these people, when it comes to selling a main residence, well sometimes, it's the project of a life. It's the biggest expense they've ever made in their lives, so it's something important. You have to inspire confidence, and there, strangely, we realize that it's not the open shirt and this kind of attitude that inspires confidence in people. In addition to having a job as a business real estate agent, there is also sometimes questioning work to be done to succeed in this profession. So, there you have it. I was lucky to have had experiences before. Strangely, at 26, I became an employee again even though I had already been a business manager. This shows how strong the desire to become a real estate agent was, because ultimately, we always have this impression of going down the social ladder. But for me, it wasn't a problem, because it was passion above all. I got my foot in the door of real estate, and very quickly found myself passionate about it. I quickly understood that it was made for me, and I knew how to stay, I worked hard. I learned through my experience as a business manager that you have to know how to constantly adapt. And so, I had to adapt having already encountered sectors in crisis, markets in crisis, more or less easy periods to work as a business manager in catering, and in vehicles as well. And so, I had this ability to adapt quite well. I managed to adapt very quickly, to become a real estate agent, to have a little bit of success, and then that accelerated over time. So here is my journey. I started as a real estate agent, and I was passionate about it. Numbers also fascinated me. And so, inevitably, by dint of deepening the calculations for investor clients, mainly a client who is William, my partner in the ICM network whom I met when William was the client, and I was one of the other side of the desk. When he walked through the door of my agency, I'm not going to say that it was love at first sight instantly, but we understood each other very well, because I love figures, talking about profitability with my clients , and he, as an investor, obviously, it was an approach that was relevant. And then, he had perhaps met a real estate agent who mastered the notions of profitability, cash flow, and all that kind of thing in me. And so, it worked pretty well between us. So I became a real estate investor a few years later, because I quickly understood that clients of mine were getting rich while they slept. And it made me want to do the same. It was me who gave them advice. They always say that the shoemaker has bad shoes, but all the same, I wanted to take my share of the pie in this world, and to have, too, tenants and assets that would pay for themselves over time through the repayment of home loans. So, I took the plunge. I made several acquisitions very quickly. I started the investment by purchasing three apartments simultaneously. I was fortunate to earn my living quite well, to have a borrowing capacity which was very good, in fact, because I did not own my main residence. For the record, I am currently renting my main residence, always with the aim of reducing my debt ratio, and being able to continue buying. And not to get bored watching an asset pay for itself, I always need to do something new, new acquisitions, and that's it.
− Super interesting. It’s true that you are a real estate investor. I think I know, you correct me if I'm wrong, that you also have part of your assets that you exploit in a short period of time. How did you make this choice of operating methods which is very special? There are advantages, there are disadvantages. Today, with everything that has happened to us recently, do you regret it? What do you think about all this?
− Indeed, I have part of my real estate assets which are used for short-term rentals. This is absolutely the case. It's something that I don't regret at all, although like many, I went through some periods of doubt at the time of the first confinement, and I wondered how the future was going to go, and if it would always be so rosy. I think I'm not the only one to have had this kind of doubt. I went through these few emotions. For my part, I had established a sort of timetable, and then I knew that I would have to make a decision to sell if we remained confined indefinitely. Of course, that wasn't the case, the lockdown stopped. There was another one after that which also stopped very quickly. And then the activity still worked as well, it still works as well, if not even better than before I have the impression. I don't follow the figures every day, but I think we still have good years ahead of us for short-term investors. You asked me a question: why did I take the plunge? There's a numbers part, but there's also a part of the explanation that's going to be emotional, actually, for my part. To have a return, to have good profitability as an investor, it is often very complicated to go to the heart of a city, to go to heritage properties. And when you're a little bit like me, in love with beautiful stones, well when you pass through city centers and see beautiful buildings, sometimes Haussmann-style – I'm from Normandy. In Rouen, there are beautiful buildings which are not Haussmann-style, but half-timbered, all twisted, which have facades which go off at an angle. It looks like the building is leaning, but no, it was built like that. And there are beautiful colors on the half-timberings. We will have a building with red half-timbering, and then next to it, one with green half-timbering, and another in blue. And it's a bit of a postcard setting, because it's heritage that is classified, we can't do what we want. When we have to renovate and we have the architects of French buildings who control what we do, it's not always very easy, because it will take a little more time to carry out the work. But in reality, for me, it was really a pleasure, and I wanted to have heritage that looked like that. I had previously done furnished shared accommodation in areas where there are universities. So generally, we are in the suburbs, we are in the urban area, but not in the historic city center. And there you have it, I wanted something that was pretty, that visually made me say: “Ah yes! That's a beautiful piece of real estate. » To be profitable, I could not rent in traditional nude. Renting furnished accommodation for a long term was not an interesting figure for me. When I say interesting for me, it means at least achieving financial balance over a borrowing period which was 15 or 20 years. And so, the short duration allowed me to have additional returns; and precisely to generate cash flow in certain properties. And so, I was profitable, I had an accounting balance on the new operations, and it is clearly thanks to this rental strategy that I was able to acquire, we can say, beautiful heritage, and heritage which is in beautiful buildings and at beautiful addresses. I had sold quite a few things in my life. The most beautiful, the best placed, I kept. We always say that an investor must work with his calculator more than with his heart. It's not just emotions. There is also the fact that it is in the current market. I have kept it until now, because we are seeing an evolution of prices in these hyper centers, and let's say that I am also enriched by the added value, the expectation which grows year after year. And I know that if I sold today, I would sell for more than if I had sold last year or two years ago. So that's why I keep it. There is also another setting. I am someone who is a little impatient in life. Things have to happen quickly. It has to move forward a little quickly. Look at my personal enrichment solely through debt repayment. Warren Buffett uses this example for the stock market, but it was like watching grass grow. There are people who are completely comfortable with that. I need something that goes a little faster. And so, I bought, I accumulated several short-term rental properties, because it generates cash flow, and it generates monthly cash flow for me in addition to the enrichment by repaying the debt. And so, it goes a little bit faster than watching grass grow. And so, that's why I did that. Quite simply because I am a very impatient person. This is Élise.
− So that it delivers quickly.
− Exactly.
− Okay. Afterwards, I also understand having beautiful stone, even as an investor. I don't know your position on that, but it could also be largely to pass something on to your children one day. It is certain that we are always more proud to transmit a very beautiful apartment in the city center with a historic character, rather than a very distant suburban apartment without charge. I understand.
− Absolutely. There is also that. Maybe I'm a little young. I think I'm still young, but I'm not. I am 35 years old, I am not yet thinking about my inheritance. I don't know what might happen tomorrow, but I'm not there yet. It hasn't been part of my thinking, but maybe it will be one day. On the other hand, as a real estate agent, I have previously encountered clients older than me who were sensitive to this type of thing. It's a reality. Today, many people want to pass on a beautiful heritage, rather than a profitable heritage. A beautiful address, a beautiful location is still privileged. I take the extreme case: an apartment in a fifteen-story condominium from the 1970s, where there is shared accommodation, is profitable, but people who have this idea of transmission do not favor this type of apartment despite that on paper, it is more profitable at the moment t. I see it in the ICM business. Previously, when I was a real estate agent for other structures, before founding the ICM network, I also noticed this, and it is a reality.
− Yes. You see, with the experience you have in seasonal rental, I think it would be interesting if you shared with us – because in the community I display Complete, we are either seasonal rental, or professional sub-rental, or seasonal rental concierge – based on your experience, what, in your opinion, makes a seasonal rental work well? Have you identified the keys that made it a success for you?
− Yes, there are certain things. Location is everything. From my own experience, I saw that you shouldn't make the wrong location, and that it would have a considerable impact on the occupancy rate. Of course, it must be understood that the short duration meets a need for travelers. You have to understand the need. It will not always be the same depending on the sector. I will take several examples. In a tourist location, there is a need for people to find accommodation for a vacation period, perhaps a week. In an activity zone where there are businesses, we will rather respond to a need of the traveler which is to accommodate one night, two nights, three nights, sometimes a week, sometimes even three weeks, for people who work on the move for a specific mission, and sometimes even beyond. Today, this is the type of travelers I have in my accommodation. But each time, the location corresponds to a point of attraction for these travelers. People don't just come for the accommodation. Very often, they come for an activity or a leisure activity. I will take the example of the Stade de France. There are even, in 93, a lot of short-term rentals around the Stade de France which work very well. Because there are matches, and we know the supporters who are ready to travel a lot of kilometers to support their team, and who need to sleep there after a match. So, there is a market that exists for supporters. Of course, in the 93, there are many head offices, companies, and multinationals. So that matches too. When it's not match nights, there is a business clientele, a business clientele. But there you have it: the location. The location can be anywhere, but one is within the perimeter of a place which is the point of attraction. And that should not be mistaken. I've never tried to put an airbnb in the middle of nowhere. Maybe there is still a demand, and it will be disorienting, but at some point there is a point of attraction, and you have to be relatively close to this point of attraction. So much for the location.
− Location is everything. It’s true that we had this debate a few weeks ago. We had this debate to say to ourselves that when we have a location that is in the pampas, in the middle of nowhere, we see that there are no hotels and no advertisements, is it worth it or not to get started? I don't know if we were both of the same opinion or not. I don't know anymore.
− I don't remember.
- You don't remember? It was when we discussed revenue management with the team. I think that at the time, in any case, what we can share and what is interesting is that we said to ourselves that in the end, sometimes there is an opportunity, a place where there is no one who is located in seasonal rental, it can be either a gem or a total flop. So, it's very difficult to determine. But where I agree with you 1000% is that it is a risk-taking. There are plenty of areas, moreover, where we can go, where we know there is no risk, because we are close to a location with real appeal. How did you operate when you launched your seasonal rentals? Did you bring in decorators? Photographers? What was your position on all this?
− For setting up my first short-term rentals, yes, of course, I accompanied myself. Oddly enough, I got support despite the fact that I have a company that is a support company. Of course, that wasn't the case back then. And even today, in reality, we are a support company, but we still receive support upstream. I explain. We are professionals in real estate transactions under the ICM network brand, but only in real estate, transactions, and investments. We are of course supported in the sense that we will be the relay with companies which will carry out the work. In the example of short-term rental, with concierge companies. When I made my first investments, and the advice I give to those who would like to get started, is also not to rely on their impression, not to rely solely on their data. Human beings always have this ability to think that our intuition is correct. In my opinion, this is a bit of nonsense. In reality, there are experts, and you have to turn to experts to have the most relevant data. When I made my first purchase, I invested in the city center, so it was a bit easy. I quickly understood by looking at the ad sites myself that there was a demand, that accommodation was rented, that it was reserved. So, it wasn't difficult to determine the area. On the other hand, what I was not able to determine precisely was the value of the night, the occupancy rate that I would have on average. And so, I simply called concierge companies, on the one hand, because I will need them later, and I wanted to start discussions now with these companies, compare quotes, get the feeling, who were the human beings who were going to manage the apartment, welcome the travelers. And so, I met them. And by giving them the address, for some of them who were willing to come, we visited the apartment even though the work had not started. But they were able to determine the exact address, the brightness of the apartment, the view it could have, the number of beds; and then because they manage other accommodation in the area, they were able to tell me: “Here, we are going to position the price. » And it was quite precise. I think the first one, he told me to the nearest euro, that we had to start at 65 euros, because it was a sleeping case. They also had strategies, and that's something I didn't master at all. It may have evolved, but at the time, they told me that they were going to increase the price by 1 euro every month, as the months go by, and the opinions that are collected. I found that interesting, and that's what they did afterwards. And so there you have it. You have to listen to the professionals. And I, for my part, listened to the professionals who told me at what price I had to position myself. And so, because I understood the profitability that I was going to obtain, it also allowed me, during subsequent purchases, to consult the concierge before even making a purchase proposal and to negotiate the price according to the rents that I was going to receive. These were clearly rents indicated to me by the concierges. For the record, today, of course, real estate agents call me to offer me deals. Generally, the real estate agent, before even going to town, I ask about the address, the surface area, the interior configuration. With that, immediately, as soon as I hang up, I call the concierge, I give them the items, and I ask them clearly: how much can we rent? How many nights can we expect to rent per month? And I'm going to visit if it really makes sense to go and visit. Quite simply.
− I think it’s a strength to say to yourself: “I surround myself with a team. » This is the logic that you describe there to say: “I surround myself with a team who will gravitate around me to help me propel myself. » And that's a bit of the logic that you put in place in the ICM network. This is because you have agents who are on the ground, who know their region extremely well, and then you also have all the professionals with people who are in charge of supporting the work. You really have quite a hive, and that's a strength, I think. I don't know if the word "hive" is appropriate. You correct me on stupid things. And I find that to be a real strength. It's funny because I think that in fact, you had this logic from the start. That's what made you successful, I think. For people who look at us and say: “OK. This really motivates what Alexandre says. I really want to get started, but I'm a little scared. Do you have any advice? Because you see a lot of neo-investors, new investors in the ICM network who come to you to say: “I want to get started. » What's your advice for investing, and doing things well when you're a little afraid to get started?
− Above all, there will be advice. In fact, there are two things: either we are trained or we are supported. And in fact, we cannot do otherwise. You just have to keep that in mind, tell yourself that if you don't have one of the two elements, in fact, you shouldn't do it. And it's a reality. Sometimes I meet people who turn to us after having had a few failures, and who still have the courage to invest, and say: “Adventure can be nice. » We know, of course, that when the first operation goes badly, I have met people who give up and no longer want to. People who thought, precisely, that things were going to go well, but doing so without being trained or without support, had failures, and no longer wanted to hear about real estate investments. I'm describing it a little darkly, but you have to be very careful. Getting support is relatively simple. When I say “get support”, it doesn’t necessarily mean going through a support company. Yes, the ICM network does that, I'm not going to preach for my parish. Getting support can be quite simply when you don't understand the subject of the work, when you buy an apartment that needs to be renovated, well it's not wanting to estimate the work alone if you're not a building professional. Before even making a purchase proposal, come with a company, with several companies if necessary to obtain several quotes. Today it's very easy. There are many online platforms that allow you to connect with construction professionals. Simply submit your request online, and we will be put in touch. And what's more, it's wonderful, because we only meet companies that are subject to the terrible law of votes, reviews, and stars. So we actually meet people who will then be rated, and if the rating is not good, then they will no longer be able to claim a connection through these platforms. It is still a guarantee of meeting good people, reliable people, people who will not abandon the site, and people who will meet the announced price. As on Airbnb, as on booking, the rating could decrease if the customer was not satisfied. So there you have it, it’s very simple. When you want to make an acquisition in a specific location, you should not think that you know the prices. You have to meet the real estate agents. It is the real estate agents who give us advice, and who tell us what the value of a property is on the market. And me, when I go to another city, I can't guess. I am a real estate professional, I master my sector. When I leave my sector, I have to go see my colleagues. They are the ones who tell me if a given street is worth 2,000 euros per square meter, or 4,000, or 6,000. I am incapable of doing that. Surrounding yourself, being supported, means listening to professionals, keeping your ears open, taking notes, and not thinking that you know everything. It would be very dangerous. Same for the concierge service. You might think that by doing an analysis ourselves on short-term rental ad sites, we will find the prices. Actually, no. Now it's more complicated. The platforms take fees which are not explained when we look at the prices, households have a cost. And so, that's why when I took the example of concierge companies, being supported means consulting them and listening to them. And that is very important. Once you're trained, no problem. We can go a little faster, and do it with a little less people. But it’s super important: supported or trained. Just a little thing, you said: “for those who are afraid”. The reality is that fear will not necessarily disappear because we have support. When we are in the first, fear exists. She's normal. And that’s what I tell my clients. I say, “The first time you drove a car or went to your first driving school appointment, you were scared. It was the first time, and it's normal to be afraid the first time. When you got on a bike, the first time, you were scared. But it was through practice that you learned, and eventually the fear went away. » And so, it's normal to be afraid for the first time. For some, I like to take the example of the girlfriend. I tell them, “But you had a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and the very first date, were you afraid? » And often the answer is: “Yes, I wasn't proud. » We've all been there. In our life, it is normal to feel this fear. You shouldn't say to yourself: "If I'm afraid, I won't go." » Fear is human. It's a completely normal feeling, and it's through practice that the fear goes away and we progress. And so, it's normal to be afraid. But this must not stop us from moving forward. We can be accompanied, surrounded, shared with loved ones the project we are doing, and that helps to overcome fear. But it's not going to disappear. It will be up to us to overcome it.
− I find the driving school metaphor quite interesting, because in the end, yes, that’s a bit like it. When we get help to get started on a first investment, it's us who are at the wheel, because in the end, it's us who sign with the notary in the end. But we have the driving school instructor who is with us, who is the person who supports us in the investment. It’s true that I like this metaphor. Do we still have to ask ourselves the question, when we arrive to subscribe to support like that, do I wish, we set an example for them, just pass on a heritage to my children, so do really heritage, or do I want additional daily income, or another scenario, I want to create a gîte? Should we still ask ourselves this question before coming?
− You have to ask yourself this. Generally, when we are at the investment stage, there are perhaps people who want to invest just to be like their friends, I don't really know. Yes, it exists. In fact, I have met some. But that's good too. There is no problem. But generally, we have already asked ourselves the question. We meet, in the ICM network, many clients who are first-time investors, who turn to us precisely because they cannot be found in the traditional offer of real estate agents. They are investors, but with traditional agencies, the real estate agent will often disappear at the time of the final sale and the authentic deed. And for the first time, saying that they will organize the work alone: the furnishing, the installation of the tenants, that's a bit much besides being on the first purchase. And so, they turn to support companies like ours, in this case. Often, people already have a why, before even saying to themselves: “I’m going to invest”. The why will be: “I’m getting older, I want to pass on something to my children. » For others who will be younger, sometimes, even at 20 years old, some tell us: “We no longer believe in retirement. There won't be any. So we want to take charge, and clearly, we want to invest now, because we want, at some point, to have real estate assets that will generate income, because we find the future a little uncertain . » For others, it will be making a small investment in a city, because they tell themselves that it could be useful later for their children who will be studying in this big city. There are plenty of reasons. Often people already have it. Sometimes people don't have it. There's nothing wrong with that. Wanting to invest in order to be able to invest, there is no problem about that. Of course, whether people have determined their “why” or not, the first step, at least at ICM, is to establish investment specifications. We will try to understand the “why”. We will try to understand the customer's needs. And depending on the need, which is perhaps to transmit, which is perhaps to create income instantly through the game of positive cash flow, but all of that must be very clear, and the first thing , it is to establish specifications which will make it possible to direct the search for real estate, which must of course correspond to the client's expectations and the client's needs. Obviously, we are not going to offer the same type of real estate if the person wants income or transmit real estate assets. The budgets will be different, the locations and the rental strategy will be different. So, we may have defined our need, we may not have defined it, it doesn't matter. When you are surrounded by professionals, I think that the majority of professionals have this approach of understanding the client before even starting their work. I dare to hope that this is the case in any case.
− Okay. Great. I know that you also see a lot of files going through. Do you have any big mistakes that have been made, that you should not make, or mistakes that people would have made in the past before joining you? Can you tell us one? A pitfall in which not to fall, even in your network, errors that you would have seen in real estate investments.
− For customers?
− For customers, no. I imagine that in the ICM network, when you have support, you don't fall into the pitfalls, precisely. But perhaps in the real estate past, or in your network, people who would have invested, and who would have made mistakes when investing. I cite one, because that's what I have in mind. What I often see is the fact of investing... that, I think you're going to tell me that you don't agree with that. I say it anyway. Because you explained earlier why you don't agree with that. But a mistake that I have seen is to invest in the short term while expecting profitability only in the short term, so that the property is not profitable in the long term. And in which case, if at some point there is a problem, it is no longer profitable. But I think you will answer me that sometimes, it makes sense, precisely, to acquire this type of city center heritage property with a historic character. Do you have another example that isn't this one?
− Yes. There are errors. We will say that it is a journey that was not easy for certain people, indeed, that I met when I was a real estate agent or at the head of the ICM network, in fact. There is a world going on in life where we say to ourselves: “I’m going to take the plunge, I’m going to make a rental investment. » Except that it doesn't necessarily happen at birth. It can happen at 20 years old, at 30 years old, at 40 years old, at 50 years old. And obviously, we have done things before before making this decision to make a rental investment, which sometimes will put obstacles in our way. I'm not going to say that these are necessarily errors. It’s part of the journey, and that’s how we learned. And it is not a mistake to have learned through experience. This is my case. I am someone who is not trained by diplomas, but by experience. But I sometimes encounter problems with certain customer profiles. I will take the most frequently encountered example. These are people who own their main residence, who have income, who have debt on their main residence, and who unfortunately, as individuals, invest in physical person. They are already at 25, 30, 35% debt, and they want to invest. It can be a kind of twist for the whole family. Because sometimes we are faced with a situation, we know that it will be necessary to resell the main residence so that the family can rent again for a while, so a few months, or even a few years, if really, the goal The ultimate goal is to invest. And by being rented, with a rent lower than loan repayments, to regain debt capacity, and to be able to invest. As I said just before, this is my case. Currently, I am the owner of several properties, but tenant of my main residence. So it sometimes happens that people, it puts a little blow on their head, but they want to achieve their goals, to invest and have assets, because they are thinking about the future, in 20 years, 30 years. And so, sometimes, you have to resell your main residence. I will take another example, that of a rental investment that would have been poorly done. Of course, there is the example of Pinel which comes up every time.
− Yes.
− I am not completely decided on the subject. There are also good tax investments in Pinel, and I met people who had made good investments, because the logic of purchasing per square meter was good. Of course, this is not always the case. But I have seen people make good investments in Pinel. We often hear the stories of Pinel who is in a bad position, where the monthly savings effort is considerable. And then, we bought something that was too expensive, and we know all that. But without even being sure of rental investment where the objective was fiscal, I saw people buying properties, and already being owners of real estate that they were renting out, but because they had bought the property with their emotions more than with their calculator. I take an example. The beautiful apartment that you want, which has a lot of charm, which is well located, or in which you could see yourself living, well, we will buy it. This very pleasant apartment, in which there is no work, we will obviously buy it more expensive per square meter compared to what we could find. Because it is an emotional purchase, because it has already been renovated, and we know that a very damaged apartment, plus the work, will be cheaper than an apartment already finished. This is how goods dealers work. They renovate, and they make a margin on this operation. And so, it happens that I meet people who own a property in which there are tenants, but the profitability is not there. There is a profitability of 3%, 4%, and it is this particular good which will prevent them from doing it again. The banker, when we present a file to him, takes into account our overall gross income. That means work income, rental income, other income if there is any: business income, dividends, that kind of thing. And so, next to that, there are the expenses and the credits that exist. And it is the calculation of these things that will determine the borrowing capacity or not. And so, I met people who had a thousand euros of loan repayment on a property, but they collect rent of 600 euros every month. And so, obviously, there is a problem. They have a real estate investment that is not Pinel, in which they make an effort to save. This means that to repay the debt for the acquisition of this property, they pay 400 euros out of their pocket every month. Obviously, there are investments like that. Yes, it's a great investment, we like it, we've invested our money in stone, but in reality, this monthly expense to cover the credit or the various charges of co-ownership property taxes or the renovation of the property we prevents you from moving forward. And when we are not sure of the profitable investment in the first acquisitions, it can prevent us from going further, then faster. And it is very important to initially purchase goods which are very profitable, and which allow us to have a debt capacity which is always as close as possible to zero. It's sometimes complicated, you have to be very profitable. There are bankers who weight rents by 50%. This means that even if we have a property in which we have a loan repayment of 500 euros per month, and we have a rent of 500 euros per month, when the banker, in his calculation logic, weights it at 50 %, he will take it for 500 euros per month of income. And that's the kind of thing, when we don't master it, it's a bankers' way of calculating that prevents us from doing a second, then a third, then a fourth. And when we're stuck, we're stuck. So, sometimes you have to go back, you have to sell things to start fresh. This is currently my case. I am reselling goods to be able to bounce back.
− Super interesting. If someone listens to us and says, “Great. I would like Alexandre's company to help me invest. Can you tell us more precisely what you do at ICM? How is it going? How does it start? How does it end? What's going on?
− How are things going at ICM? I will take an example, when I, Alexandre, invest in real estate to explain. I will tell you how the ICM network was actually born. I was a real estate investor. I had started, then I had a little success. Modest success, but I generated positive cash flow, and I was able to make a series of acquisitions from the start, because I was pursuing investment strategies that were still quite profitable. Obviously, there are people close to me who wondered how I did it, and who asked me for advice, and who asked me to accompany them. I was not an accompanist. The term didn't even exist back then in my world. And so, I have close people: my little sister, friends, members of my family, who told me: “We would like you to help us do the same.” And so, in my free time, I found myself looking for goods for my loved ones, and then as they wanted something profitable, and then I also wanted them to make something profitable because I was trying to give them advice correctly, I organize meetings with craftsmen. In fact, I give them my company contacts, and then I recommend companies to them, so I pass my contacts on to them. And then here I am on site to cost the projects with them, because they need me to give them advice. And then finally, actually, I help them every step of the way until the end. During site monitoring, I still give them advice, and then on the authentic deed, and then everywhere. And so, I do it once, and then twice, and then three times. And above all, I am making progress in investing, but of course, like all investors, I cannot get everything I would like to buy financed. I have plenty of good deals, except that the banker, like everyone else, tells me: “stop”. He tells me: “stop” several times a year. So, on the one hand, I have people who want to invest, and who would be willing to pay me to help them invest, and on the other hand, I have profitable assets. So the company was like that. William had made this observation before me, and then in fact, we said to ourselves: “But what if we made a business out of it? We are going to start a business supporting people.” It was born quite simply like that. We do for our customers what we would have done for ourselves. So, when a person contacts the company, well for me, it's like when my little sister calls me, and asks me to help her invest. I will cite the trials in which we intervene. It's relatively simple. In fact, we're really there from start to finish, and that's what our guides do. We first supported clients in the Rouen region. It was William who did that at first, then I joined them. And then, the demand grew so much that we were completely overwhelmed by this demand. The request was in Rouen, then in Paris, then in Lyon, then in Montpellier, then in Nantes. And in fact, when we started recruiting – today, we have around twenty sales agents – we imagined, in fact, little Alexandres, and little Williames all over France. And that’s how the network was born. I'm not going to say “despite us”, but almost. Not in spite of ourselves, because we wanted to do that. It is our passion, real estate, even before being a profession, an activity, or a company. It is a passion shared by the members. We have a recruitment criterion that may be a little harsh for some, and that's why we're not a big network. We are recruiting people who are either experienced real estate agents or real estate investors. And today, we have a network which is made up entirely of seasoned real estate investors. They are all personally investors. What we want for our clients is not that they be accompanied by real estate agents. We want them to be supported, and to work in pairs with an experienced investor. Me, when I was younger, for my first investment, I would have liked to have a mentor, to have a referent who would give me advice, and who would tell me whether it was a good idea to buy this property or not, whether the works budget, it is relevant or not, if the plumbing expense, it is coherent, and which would have reassured me on the rental value that I had imagined. I would have been much faster. We were talking about fears earlier. Perhaps I would have been less afraid if someone experienced had given me advice, or had been by my side, saying: “Alexander, you can do this. I’m here to give you advice.” That’s the expertise we want to bring. In the ICM network, we take care of several things. So, it is the search and prospecting of the property, once the specifications have been established. So, research, prospecting, negotiation, and of course, organization, signing of compromises and authentic acts. We have expertise as construction brokers. This means that we are the ones who will find partner companies in each sector, who will work with us. In reality, it's not all that complicated. Work brokerage may seem like a big thing, but it’s not at all. In reality, we employ craftsmen that we have already employed to work for ourselves. The clients we support in the Rouen region are my own craftsmen, who work in my apartments, who work for my clients. These are people I trust, these are people with whom there is a real friendship that exists. For the moment, they are friends, for the most part. And these are the people who will work for our clients. When it comes to a project in Lyon, it's the same. The guide from Lyon, in fact, opens his address book to his own clients, and it is his own craftsmen who go to work on the construction sites. This is the work brokerage. It's called works brokerage, because we select companies, we put them in touch with clients. And above all, we sort through the offers, we compare the prices, the work, and when we give our client a quote for the construction of a building or an apartment, well, it's us who did this. work of researching the company, selecting the company, and selecting the quote. We have a part that we will call site monitoring. We are the eyes, ears, arms, and feet of our customers when they are not there. So when we say “support”, it is reporting on what is happening on the site. We have clients who invest remotely, or who are simply expatriates. They live at the end of the world, but as they are French residents, French for tax purposes, they can only borrow from French banks, and buy real estate which is located in mainland France. And so, they are not there. They are all over the world for their professional activities, often in large companies, and they have to invest to solve a tax problem, but they are not there. And so what we do is reporting during the construction site. This means that at least once a week, sometimes twice depending on the complexity of the projects, there are photos taken, videos taken, videoconference meetings on site where the supervisor is present. with his phone. He films, he explains what happened. We always work in partnership with a project management company. On each of the sites, there is a project management company which is appointed, and which guarantees the site, which controls the expenses, and which has real responsibility. We are real estate professionals. We want project management professionals to carry out project management. This is very important. Of course, we are in contact with interior designers who do the layout and furnishing. And we're here at the end, for the tenants to settle in. So, we also do rental transactions. We are the ones who will find the tenants, sign the leases, install the tenants, and take inventory of the premises. In fact, we don't sell real estate to a client, we sell them profitability, and we commit to maintaining it. Because we marked it in black and white. We go until the end: we install the tenants, and we say: “Here are the keys, it’s in place, there’s nothing more to do.” Of course, in the case of the short term, our expertise ends at the end of the furnishing, and there is systematically contact with a concierge company that we have selected, with whom we have spoken. So we know the prices. Very often, it is this same company which had indicated what the price positioning was upstream. And so, it is a handover from our client to the concierge company, which will take over. So obviously, we can only support our clients in sectors where we identify concierge companies. Today, it is a large part of the territory. But in somewhat rural environments, even if there was an existing activity, if we do not have a partner who would allow complete delegation of concierge services, we do not provide support in this sector. Because we really want to provide turnkey businesses to our clients. So. That's our expertise. It’s turnkey support and investment.
− Top. Super interesting. If we want to find you, if we want to find society, how do we do it? Where are we going? Who are we writing to?
− I will give the website. This is the simplest and most fluid way to understand our expertise and to contact us. The website is called reseau-icm.fr. This is where you can find the explanations of our expertise. You can contact us, you can book an appointment to make an initial assessment, and an assessment of your research or your current situation to determine if we will work together or not. Oddly, when I say that you have to go to this site, it's not so that there are a lot of customers who come. We know that we are not relevant for all customers. Sometimes we are unable to work with certain clients, because they have demands and profitability requirements that go beyond what we see in the sectors. We sometimes tell people who would like 13% profitability in a particular sector that we will never be able to satisfy this demand. We are professionals, but we are not magicians, unfortunately. And we deal with the realities we see on the market. Of course, having 13% profitability exists. I sometimes tell certain clients that they will have 13% profitability in their sector, if they research it themselves, if they do the work themselves, if they pay for the apartment themselves, they do tiling, and that they make the furnishings. They will avoid a lot of costs, and the investment would cost them much less. I'm not encouraging them to go through another company, but we respond to people who don't have the time, who can't do it themselves, who are too busy to take care of their investments, research, site monitoring. And there you have it. Sometimes we are incompatible and don't work together. On the ICM network, in any case, you can book an appointment directly to take stock. Very often, it is with me or with William, my partner, that this point is made. This allows us to establish the specifications, and possibly to see if we will be compatible, if we will be able to work together or not. You will find the different sectors in which we work. You will even see who the people are – that's what's important, it's the human aspect, ultimately in our profession – you can even find the guides, who are the members of the network in each of the cities. There are their photos, there are quite a few things. So, we have a good understanding on the company's website. And then, of course, on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn. A little everywhere.
− I will put all the links. That way, people just have to click to be able to find you on the site, and then also on social networks. And even Linkedin, I will put your Linkedin if someone wants to write to you on Linkedin.
− It will be a great pleasure, because I think that some investors are watching us in this video, and we are always recruiting to satisfy an ever-increasing demand. We have a lot of clients who are waiting for investments. We cannot satisfy them all, and so, for that, we recruit if some want to make a living from their passion which would be real estate. We are in a period of recruitment for investors – not necessarily real estate agents, as I said earlier – who would like to earn a living with this expertise that they already do for themselves. Linkedin is a network which is used, among other things, to recruit, so you should not hesitate to come see us and apply. We will be delighted to interact with new investors with whom we share a common passion.
− Great. Thank you very much Alexandre. It was super interesting everything you shared with us. Thank you very much for your time, and for all these nuggets that you shared with us today.
− Thank you very much for inviting me. I hope that this will make some people want to get into rental investment, perhaps to launch into a professional activity linked to real estate after having been an investor. In any case, it will be a pleasure. Thank you very much, Élise, for giving us the floor.
− Thank you.
Don't forget, you can click just below this video, on the links in the comments, to immediately discover the ICM network website, and see more precisely the people who could take care of your region, and ask an appointment to find out more. If you are not yet subscribed to the YouTube channel, and if you liked our exchange today with Alexandre, do not hesitate to subscribe with the little bell, to be alerted of new videos that we could publish with people just as fascinating as Alexander. I wish you a very good day, and I will see you soon for the next video.