Interview Dimitri Bougeard: the investor lawyer
We talk about the legal pitfalls to avoid in LCD, how to do medium-term without making a mistake as well as Dimitri's best advice for beginners.
Links mentioned in the video:
To find Dimitri:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/336864094087342
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWtIYyK3qdVkJrPerq2TpGA
www.cabinet-bougeard.com
On the mobility lease
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34759
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Hello and welcome to the channel I display Complete. I hope you're doing well. I'm showing full is the chain of seasonal rental companies and seasonal rental concierge services that help you increase your turnover and profitability. Today, I am delighted to welcome a distinguished guest with me. I'm going to give you three very interesting things about him before I introduce him and introduce him. He resold an apartment in Paris with a huge capital gain of 100,000 euros, he negotiated the price of 20% on the purchase of a small space. It’s true that it’s colossal. It also digitalized the activity of helping real estate investors. I am therefore delighted to welcome Maître Bougeard with me today.
− Hello Dimitri.
− Hello Élise. I am delighted to welcome you to the channel.
− The pleasure is shared. I'm really delighted to welcome you today. Can you tell us, to start, your background, and tell us about all this in more detail?
− Of course! I am Dimitri Bougeard, investor lawyer. I have been a lawyer registered with the Paris bar since 1995, that is to say now more than 25 years, it has been a while. I have been a real estate investor for around twenty years now. I am also a professional speaker in numerous real estate seminars, and my expertise is particularly focused on real estate law and real estate taxation. Currently, my activity is 100% focused on advising real estate investors and the creation of all kinds of companies linked to real estate, namely mainly real estate companies, but also commercial companies which could have as their object the activity concierge services, the subletting activity, which is a related activity, and the activity of real estate agencies, or sometimes even the activity of property dealers. It's a very specific activity, and I actually know very few companies of this type.
− I have lots of questions to ask you, Dimitri. I thought about all of this: what questions can we ask ourselves? And I know that your knowledge is immense on this, and that you will, I think, help a lot of seasonal rental companies who are watching us. The first question I thought of was that for beginners, it's true that seasonal rentals can seem worrying. We hear a lot about it. We hear: “Do I really have the right? » ; we hear this story of “120 days”. It can seem very nebulous and worrying. We are afraid of having big legal problems later. Can you enlighten beginners, or people who have not yet started this legal aspect?
– Yes, of course. The short-term rental activity is, in my opinion, the most profitable rental activity if it is practiced well. And that's why I particularly follow what you do as a revenue manager. We will talk about it again in another video, but in any case, I think that it is currently the most profitable rental activity, but also, legally, the most complex, for a very simple reason: it is an activity which most often requires changes in use or destination. The two terms are related, since the change of use is when we change the use we make of a good, while the change of destination is when we change, in fact, the destination for which the property was originally assigned, the destination for which it was designed from the outset. One of the terms comes under the construction and housing code, while the other term comes under the town planning code. We might as well tell you that indeed, just when we mention the subject, it doesn't quite seem that way. In reality, there are some main principles to respect, such as finding out, particularly from the town planning department, of the municipality in which you want to start a short-term rental operation. That's the first rule. Also, you have to ask yourself about the co-ownership regulations when you want to buy an apartment, and not an individual house or an investment property. This is to give you a little bit of the general legal framework. Then, you briefly mentioned it, about the famous 120-day rule which is sometimes confused with the other rules concerning the rental duration. In fact, we have two major legal regimes that exist. On the one hand, we have the possibility of allocating a premises to short-term rental, where potentially, we will do it 365 days a year; the 120-day rule, it only concerns the possibility reserved for the owner of his main residence to rent said main residence within the limit of 120 days per month for a short period. And this rule is very interesting, since even in municipalities in which there are restrictions on LCD, we can think of Paris, but large municipalities have restrictive regulations. Me, I think of Nice, I think of Lyon, I think of Bordeaux, I think of smaller towns like Versailles, which is also a tourist city. So, to prevent there being too much short-term rental, municipalities are putting in place regulations which will either limit the number of properties that the investor owns, or limit in time the possibility of short-term rental. on this or that property. So, for example, in Nice, we know that over periods of three years a priori renewable two or three times, but after that, it's over, we can no longer continue this mode of exploitation. In Paris, there are still other rules which are called “compensation rules” with quite exorbitant fees to pay. All this is put in place to discourage investment. But by first finding out about the possibilities and restrictions that exist from the town planning department and the town hall, we can still do very good things in a large part of the municipalities in France. This is really to show the general picture. And precisely, to come back to your question about the 120 days, and even in a municipality where you will have regulations which almost prevent you, in practice, as in Paris, from renting a short-term property which would be exclusively dedicated to this, you will still be able, and this is the good news, to rent on a short-term basis for a maximum of four months. Obviously, most of the time, it is for a shorter period of time, since people who do this rent their main residence when they are not there, and therefore mainly during their own vacation period. But they could also be assigned professionally for two months to a certain location, and decide that during this period, they will rent their apartment as a short-term rental for two months. In this case, you just need to verify that you are the owner, obviously, and you can, within these 120 days, do it.
− And then there is perhaps also a ticket to recall, I don't know if we can say "a ticket", I don't know what it's called, perhaps a gray area, in the law , but there is also the fact that we can host, that's what I did, I had used two rooms in my home despite the fact that the apartment is in Île-de-France, and in this extremely tense area, I was able, in fact, to get out of this 120-day rule, because I was welcoming people, but while being in my main residence myself. This is where there was a small gray area which is not necessarily known, I think, and which allows us to avoid the rule. But it makes for a pretty special lifestyle, because you welcome people into your home. But it’s an area that exists. I don't know how you would say it. Is it a flaw, or a gray area?
− No, that’s not a flaw. This is a possibility that is offered by the law, indeed. That being said, let's say that it remains marginal, because obviously, people who really want to invest in real estate are not going to be content with renting a room in their main residence.
− It’s true.
− They will start purchasing apartments, buildings, houses, and they will have several short-term rentals, dedicated to this activity. So it's true that this possibility exists, I completely agree with you. However, I believe that it remains on the margins. This will be a little extra income. I myself was able to experience it as a user, because I happened to rent a short-term rental in the city of Troyes at the time when I did not have an apartment, and I I decided, rather than going to a hotel, to rent a room from someone who did short-term rentals. And like you said, it's a little bit of a special lifestyle. That being said, it was also very interesting, because it was a Franco-Japanese couple, and I was able to chat with the man in the couple who stayed there in the morning, before I went to do some work in an apartment, precisely. We were able to discuss all kinds of subjects, since he was a journalist at France 3. So, it could also be something very nice, apart from the purely profitability aspect. This human side is something which, I believe, also greatly attracts a certain category of investors in short-term rentals, since a large number of them, as long as they do not have enormous real estate assets, will continue to welcome and exit travelers themselves. It’s an opportunity to build human relationships and have contact with other humans.
– You are right. It's true that we don't talk about it much, but it's part of the reality. Do you have any pitfalls, perhaps the main pitfalls to avoid when you want to do short-term rentals? What are the legal traps you should avoid falling into, in your opinion?
− Already, the main pitfall is to launch directly into the purchase of the apartment without having taken care to read the co-ownership regulations very carefully. You will obviously not have this difficulty if you buy an investment property or a detached house directly. But otherwise, if we wake up and say to ourselves: “Ah, hey! There are neighbors who annoy me. They say that in the co-ownership regulations, I can’t do it”, it’s a little late! You had to read the co-ownership regulations first. However, for several years now, the provision of the co-ownership regulations has been obligatory, since it is one of the documents that we necessarily submit, prior to signing the compromise or the promise. So on that, some practical advice: if you have a real estate agent, because this is often the case, who tells you “There is no problem, I will give you all that when we sign the compromise or the promise", it's just niet, because the co-ownership regulations are generally 60 to 80 pages long, and therefore, you are not going to read 60 to 80 pages before signing the compromise or the promise. You must have the documents well in advance, including the last three minutes of the general meeting. For me, this is a pitfall to avoid: not reading these documents before buying, when you know very well that you will be switching to short-term rental. Second thing which is not really a pitfall, but rather a tip: when you buy in a condominium, simply do a little neighborhood investigation. Check to see if there are key boxes on the other floors of the building. It can be an indicator that other people are doing it, and therefore potentially that it can be done. On the contrary, in very small condominiums, check who lives above, below, in front of you. Maybe go knock on doors and say: “There is an apartment for sale, I would like to buy it”, without necessarily going into the details of what you want to do with it. That's very simple to do. People are quite talkative. This will allow you to see whether the person who lives below you is not the president of the union council who is fiercely opposed to short-term rentals. And when it's like that, if there are also retirees, who spend as much time at home as possible, that's when you're heading straight for trouble. And for me, in a case like this, I prefer to move on, rather than start alienating everyone. Because you should know that short-term rentals often don't get very good press. It will depend in particular on the departments in which we are going to practice it, because we have a public of travelers which is not the same depending on the departments, and depending on the reservation channels that we use. But that's more in your field, so I think you might be able to confirm that we don't necessarily have the same travelers who book through Airbnb as those who book through booking. I don't know what you think about it.
− Absolutely. Exactly.
– There you go. So really, that’s a very simple tip. Do a little investigation into the condominium you are buying into. If you buy a house to divide it into short-term rental, well, once again, check with the town hall to find out the rules of the local town planning plan, and to find out if your project does not risk clashing with to a recurring pitfall in this type of project: the need to create parking spaces, because you are creating additional housing. So this is also something that I encounter extremely frequently. These are really the two major pitfalls. The third pitfall, I have already talked about it a little, is to find out from the town planning department of the town hall to find out if ultimately, the good idea that we have, it is indeed achievable while respecting the rules. In many municipalities, there will be absolutely no prior authorization required to transform premises used for residential use into furnished accommodation for tourism or hotel use. This is not very clear to me. The requests are not the same in all municipalities. I hear bells and whistles from different investors speaking to me. So, not all municipalities are super sticklers for regulations, or super aware of regulations. As is often the case, unfortunately, it is quite complex. So.
− During the pandemic, as you know, it is true that LCD is an area that has suffered more than other areas, and it is true that the medium duration has been an important element in gaining its pinnacle of the game. At J'poster Complet, this is an element which allowed us to still obtain good performances, despite the successive confinements. In these cases, what are the rules for you to follow in order to be able to do medium duration? Because the average duration is one of the subjects which, I find, still remain today, from a juridico-legal point of view, a little nebulous, overall, in the field of LCD.
− First of all, what do we call medium duration? That's the first thing. For you, what does the average duration mean, Élise?
− The average duration, from a revenue management point of view, is from the moment when we could potentially grant a price reduction. Obviously, the reduction levels are different, but we do it from seven nights, fourteen nights, one month. And overall, it's not more than three months. But maybe you will tell me: “No, not at all”.
− The average duration, for me, is between three months and eight months, let's say. That's more for me, the average duration. Because normally, legally, when you stay for less than three months, it remains short. The criterion for moving from short term to medium term is quite simply these famous three months. I no longer have in mind the article, the exact law on this three-month duration, but there is a text on this duration. Afterwards, beyond that, it’s medium duration. And therefore, the average duration is at the limit of the main residential lease, in reality. It almost becomes the main residence. Then there are specific leases. In particular, we have the mobility lease, reserved for special cases, where we can have five months, six months, eight months, with a maximum of 10 months, I believe, but I have not reviewed this specific point. So, we will have a lease which will be a medium-term mobility lease, so we will be able to very well operate these short-term accommodations following a mobility lease for a specific period, provided that we do not use this lease to circumvent the law, and that this lease corresponds to one of the specific cases provided for by law for the use of this type of lease. Obviously, I advise all investors to respect the legality. Why do I say that? Because I had a discussion the other time on a forum with someone to whom I pointed out that people who moved from short-term rental to classic furnished rental according to the 1989 law may not have not realize that the problem they had was that once we had a classic long-term lease other than the mobility lease which is specific, well that gave the existing tenants very important rights , in particular that of seeing his lease be renewed, unless he is given leave for three reasons to be very precise: leave and return to live, leave and return to sell, or leave for legitimate and serious reasons, which is mainly the case late payment of rent, unpaid rent, or serious nuisance noted, that is to say any neighborhood disturbance noted by a court decision. Suffice to say that the investor who said to himself: "It's not great, because I'm in a tourist area, and there are no longer any tourists", already, it's true that at the Basically, I think that the investment was not necessarily designed with a global vision of short-term rental, since I see short-term rental as rental for a much more open public than simply the tourist. I think we will have the opportunity to say a few words about it a little later. And so, people who were only targeting tourists, like in Paris, said to themselves: “I'm going to move to furnished accommodation, and then when everything is better, I'll switch back to short-term rentals. » No, no, no. Once the tenant is there, you cannot give him notice to return to short-term rental. It doesn't exist.
− Okay.
− So, we will have people who will leave the market.
− And yes! So, it's true that the short term is up to three months from a legal point of view, but we have sites like morningcroissant, for example, which give us mobility leases for one month. I'm going to take a very concrete and very basic example, for the people who are listening to us, to really know, on a daily basis, this evening, if I have a request, what do I do? For example, if I have someone who books directly on my apartment, who stays for a month, do you recommend staying on a classic contract, as if they reserved two nights for me directly? , or do you recommend taking out, for example, a mobility lease?
− I would recommend taking out a mobility lease, if and only if your stay corresponds to the criteria defined for the use of a mobility lease. If it is a professional secondment for a period of one month, this will a priori be one of the cases, precisely, where we can use the mobility lease, whereas if it is a leisure stay, this clearly does not fit not, for me, within the framework of the mobility lease, and therefore, we will remain on the short-term rental contract.
− So, the lesson of what you are saying is vigilance with this mobility lease on sites like morningcroissant, because we have to make sure that we are legally on track.
− Yes. There are many companies that exist on the market. There are all kinds of companies that are serious, that's clear. But sometimes I see amazing things. I've seen this for shared accommodation subletting where they put in place contracts that leave me speechless, because they are not articulated correctly. So quite simply, what I suggest you do is that we put a link under your video which will refer to the web page which goes to the mobility lease, like that, the people who will watch the video n All you have to do is simply click and see if everything matches the mobility lease criteria.
− Excellent idea. With great pleasure.
− I will of course send you the link.
− Thank you. Do you have one or two examples of the worst mistakes you've seen? It's true that you just mentioned one to us. Do you have any other examples of the catastrophic errors that you have seen in short-term rentals from a legal point of view, or in all of that?
− From a legal point of view, the worst mistake, in fact, is the pitfall that I have already mentioned, namely buying an apartment, and then seeing that you cannot use it for short-term rentals. That, truly, is the worst mistake, and I've encountered it before. The second error that I also encounter are people who, in reality, and this is an error less legal than human, want to do short-term rentals, but at the same time, instead of looking coldly at the figures , say to themselves: “And what's more, I would like to buy it, because I will be able to take it to go there once in a while in the summer whatever. » And the problem is that they want to go there when it's most profitable, and when you're sure it's going to be full. So that's the second biggest mistake. It’s mixing profitability and sentiment. It's a bit like the "love at first sight" effect in classic real estate, where you don't buy just based on the numbers, but because the apartment is nice, pretty, and well decorated. If we looked at the figures a little more seriously, we would realize that ultimately, this is not a good deal. We have the same phenomenon in short-term rentals, except that the people who do this often do it in tourist areas, seaside resorts, ski resorts, and they don't really realize that they are going to ruin their investment, On the one hand because it will be too focused on tourism, and on the other hand because they themselves would potentially like to go there during periods when it is necessary to rent. So this is the second biggest mistake I encounter.
− Very interesting. I know that you are a real estate investor yourself, that you have short-term rentals yourself. Do you want to tell us that? Tell us about your journey with LCD?
− To say that I have short-term rentals is a bit of an exaggeration, because at the moment, I only have one. It's better than nothing, by the way. I like this mode of operation, on the other hand, to give you a little scoop, I plan to buy one to do something really dedicated to short-term rental, with revenue management, precisely. So it’s very good, with top-level decoration to improve all that, with professional photographs. Really, I'm going to have fun with this project, and I'm going to do a project that will be specially designed to have something beautiful, something that people want to go into, and at the same time, something profitable. Hence my desire to use revenue management services among others. But regarding the existing one, I must say that I do short-term rentals, because that's what I call a contract purchase. Originally, it's not really an investment, it's more of an apartment for retirement; considerations of which I was fully aware when making the purchase. I didn't take the numbers and think, "Damn, I'm going to do something great," and then fail. I knew from the start that it is a four-room, three-bedroom apartment, that it is not necessarily the type of apartment most affected by short-term rentals, although there are niches for this type. of apartments in certain locations. But that is another story. This apartment which is in the south of France by the sea, I told myself that to try to make it profitable, and at the same time not rent furnished year-round for a long period with all the constraints that this imposes in terms of possibilities of recovering the apartment, for example, and in terms of taxation, because renting a furnished four-room apartment for the year requires finding the public. As soon as we are in family apartments, we are more into long-term rentals. So, I tried to combine all that, I said to myself: “You're going to give up on profitability, but at least, during the summer, during school vacation periods, I'm going to entrust it to a management agency. management", which is not really a concierge service, but which is used to it, since that's all they do, they only do seasonal rentals. And as a result, it's something that doesn't fully satisfy me if I really wanted to be a pure short-term rental company, because it doesn't match my criteria. Nevertheless, it was a very interesting experience. My wife took care of the decoration, for once, and it works quite well, we have very good occupancy rates during the holidays. So that’s satisfying. I was faced with a few pitfalls, problems, for example, with cleaning, or if the apartment is closed for a very long time. This will make you laugh, but it had been closed for several months, and when we went there, there was a pigeon that had made its nest on the balcony. And so, it wasn't great.
− Oh yes!
− This means that when we close a rental, and we don't go there for a certain time, we can end up with some surprises. We're on the eighth floor of a building, so there you go. I also noticed, and this is something that is important in practice, that travelers don't care a little, in fact, about the exterior appearance, as long as we are not in a neighborhood that sucks. , obviously. Obviously, what we are going to take a photo of is the interior. And we live inside, we don't live outside. So, as much as it is important to have a small balcony, ultimately, the exterior appearance of the building, for me, is not very important. That's not going to be my criterion, in any case, for my future short-term rental, because the most important thing is really the service provided inside, the proximity of this or that transport, of this or that of such a point of interest, but really not the exterior appearance of the building. So. So it's a good experience. For now, I delegated everything, and I didn't really get my hands dirty. So I miss that too. That's why I want to make one that is specially dedicated to that, to have a lot more practical knowledge, not on legal matters, but for example the channel manager, things that are time-consuming, in my opinion. I would like to understand how it works, and then delegate everything, so typically use a concierge service coupled with revenue management services, seeing how the two can interface.
− I think it's a very good idea to try to understand yourself, and then say to yourself: “Come on, I'll delegate. » This is the best way to ensure the job is done well. It's important.
− Absolutely. Earlier, I don't know if you wanted me to come back to this, but you cited three points, namely added value, negotiation, and then the third, what was it?
− The digitalization of activity.
− Okay. Perhaps you would like us to come back to these points a little?
− Of course. With great pleasure. Tell us about it, it’s super interesting.
− First point is added value. This, clearly, applies to LCD as it does to all other real estate investments. When I buy an apartment, I never say: “a priori, on the added value”. For me, the three sources of enrichment are firstly positive cash flow. So, those who watch this channel are profitable investors. They have cash flow, otherwise, a priori, it means that they have already started their project badly. Second thing is capitalization. So, on short-term rentals, we will generally capitalize less, because we are buying smaller areas, and therefore the purchase prices are lower. However, the second significant source of enrichment is capitalization. And that's extremely interesting, because it's all done: the tenant repays the loan for you. And the third is the possible added value. If I tell you that, it's because in the example that you cited, Élise, it's true that I realized great added value. It was an apartment in Paris. So, Paris is one of the exceptional cities in France. We could achieve very good added value. I don't think that within three years, prices will be fifteen or twenty thousand euros per square meter. I rather have the feeling that things will start to stagnate a little gently, at least for the next few years. So at the time, I bought an apartment that was 14 square meters, a very small area, in the 17th arrondissement. I bought it for 40,000, and I sold it seven years later for 140,000.
− Wow!
− The criterion, for me, on small spaces, is to see if we have a lot or not a lot that is for sale. It's not more complicated than that. If you are in an area where there are almost no advertisements for small spaces, you know that the property will never lose value, or even that it will gain value. This is extremely simple to set up. So that's for the first anecdote. The second anecdote, I love working with people like you, because that's what I call info-preneurs. So, we do online training, we sell training programs, we sell online services, and as part of one of the training courses that I purchased, I had the click, thanks to this training , since I was a poor negotiator, and there is the concept of aggressive offers. I think you might recognize the expression. This concept of aggressive offers, I applied it during one of my purchases, where the apartment was offered at 99,000, and I said to myself: “But after all, what have I to lose by making a slightly aggressive offer? » So, I also used a calculation tool to see what was the maximum amount at which I could buy the property, so that it remained profitable. So, I did my calculations a bit, I started from the displayed price, I did my profitability calculations, and I arrived at the maximum price. So that's what any real estate investor can do very simply with the tools that exist on the internet. I came to the conclusion that my maximum price was 80,000. So, I offered 75,000, arguing of course, and not just saying: "Look, you're nice, I can't buy it more of 75,000." I offered 75,000 by saying: "The common areas are still in a terrible state", which was entirely true, "There is a sanibroyeur. For me, the sanibroyeur is just not possible for any rental, so I'm going to have to change it, it might be complicated. The property, as it is, as it is, for me, is not more than 75,000.” So, I offered 75,000, they offered me 79,000, and I accepted, since my maximum price was 80,000. So, it's something, ultimately, quite simple to put implemented, and yet, I can tell you that it is a city in the Paris region where there is competition in purchases. On the other hand, you have to be reactive. I saw the ad, called the real estate agent, and visited directly. I made the offer the same evening after the visit, obviously. So when you are in cities with competition, you have to make offers quickly. And the third thing is digitalization of legal activity. That came quite naturally, because I realized that in fact, welcoming people into an office has a rather pleasant human aspect, but it is time-consuming. And for the client, it's not necessarily interesting, because when you are in the heart of Paris, people have to travel to your office; if they come by public transport, there must be no strike, if they come by car, they must have the miraculous luck of finding a place which will have an exorbitant parking rate , in addition — thank you, Madam Mayor of Paris. And so, all of this combined means that ultimately, for meetings lasting an hour and a half, two hours, they would perhaps spend two hours or 2 and a half hours in transport. It's not super profitable for them either. So, I started doing zoom meetings, all over France, to advise real estate investors. And quickly, I obviously expanded my clientele, since ultimately, I had people in Tarbes and Carcassonne. I also made a meeting with a person who was in China, Australia, the United States, Singapore. In reality, what is very interesting is that we can do it all over the world with expatriates who want to invest in France.
− We were cut off, but we're going to pick up where we left off.
− Exactly. As I explained, it allows me to make meetings with expatriate investors in all countries in the world, which is extremely practical. The other aspect of digitalization is the creation of companies for any investor, regardless of their location. And I realized that there was a real need for advice among real estate investors, whether they are beginners or much more advanced, since at one time or another, we ask ourselves the question of real estate taxation, an extremely vast area, and above all extremely changing. Therefore, it is something that works very well. It also simply corresponds to a natural evolution, since I am turning more and more, being a real estate investor myself, towards this advice activity. And concretely, I no longer go to court. I stopped being a litigator there, and I switched completely to the activity of an advisory lawyer. Intellectually, it's more satisfying. It can be done remotely, especially for investors who wish it, I have an advice meeting which lasts approximately two hours, two hours and fifteen minutes, which is extremely complete, which is obviously extremely personalized, and plus, I record it. And I believe that at the moment few people are doing it. The zoom tool that I use allows me to record, and then, investors keep a download link to record and review the two hours of advice, the exchange, since I consider that one cannot properly confide in someone more than via an exchange between the investor and the lawyer. This is really the digital shift that I have taken with a field that interests me extremely, it is the infopreneur activity, where I also have projects that will soon be released. So there will be something coming out in early March. For those who are interested, do not hesitate to subscribe to my jurisimmo invest group, because it is a free Facebook group dedicated to real estate investors on legal and tax aspects. You can also find me on my modest YouTube channel the investor lawyer.
− This is exactly the question I was going to ask you. If we want to come back to you, ask you a question, be in contact with what you do and what you produce on a daily basis, there is your Facebook group, the YouTube channel. Are there other places to learn a little about what you do?
− Yes, absolutely. I have a site www.cabinet-bougeard.com, which is a more general site; I'll call it a showcase site. You can contact me via the contact email address on this site, you can also contact me very simply via Messenger. I'm pretty responsive, except when I receive too many messages at once, and they go too low in the pile. And finally, you can also find me on Instagram. I receive more and more contacts via Instagram, because there are new generations of investors. Facebook is more for people over 40 now. Then, we have Instagram for thirty-somethings. And now there are even new media for younger people. Afterwards, it becomes hard to manage everything. I am also easily reachable via WhatsApp for expatriates, in particular. It's still very interesting, since we don't have too many questions about the codes, the price, or anything else. Hop, we are in contact with the mobile numbers via WhatsApp, and it works, it's extremely good. So there's a lot of opportunity to get advice from an investor lawyer, since that's kind of my brand. The investor lawyer, why do people call me? Quite simply because they know that I am a lawyer in this field, but that I also have this dual skill as an investor like you, and like the other people who watch your channel.
− I can only warmly encourage you to follow Dimitri in everything he does. Know that what's going to come out at the beginning of March, what he's preparing, it's going to be just incredible, you can't miss it. So frankly, don't miss the wagon. Join his group, or follow him on different networks. Obviously, I would put all the links so that you just have to click. So. So, I'm taking this opportunity to finish.
− First of all, thank you very much, Dimitri, for the time you gave, thank you for all this super qualitative information that you shared with us. Honestly, it was really lucky to have you with us today.
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− Thank you very much, Dimitri.
− Thank you, Élise.